These commentaries are a treasure house of many rooms. Thank you so much. Of many treasures here, this observation I thought particularly insightful: “The whole purpose of intellect is to transform what at first seems chaotic working of nature into a coherent vision. To make any knowledge practical to oneself and to the humanity one should first be able to articulate it properly. Your mind may hold countless fragments of information, but it is your ability to eloquently articulate how these pieces connect that transforms mere information into true knowledge.”
Thank you so much Susan! Would you mind if I copy your insightful comment to the discussion thread? :) Or would you prefer doing it yourself? :) here it is and please let me know!
Your commentaries are just fantastic, Vashik! Thank you so much for doing this read-along. I've tried to read TDC on several occasions and was afraid that I might go to my grave first. Now, it seems I will be getting some idea of where I'm going.
Thank you so much for your kind words. I was a bit slow this time with launching the discussion thread, feel free to join and share your impressions and thoughts! :)
I have always thought that one of the conundrums of logic in Christianity is that those who came before had zero chance of entering heaven. Such an inequity! In this Canto Dante does a Hail Mary and sends Jesus to Limbo to issue a pardon of sorts to some of the big names of pre-Christian lore. Am I reading this correctly?
So much interesting to read your comments and your useful list of names. i hope my long comment does not disturb, but i have a personal passion for canto 4. LIMBO always attracted me as a possible end of life...until i read the right scholars of Dante and realized it was a mistaken dream. here is my explanation why i don't want to be in Limbo.
I would like to add some words about canto 4, because I think it is a fundamental passage to understand how Inferno works and how we Readers should relate with the infernal encounters of Dante-Pilgrim.
I am not a scholar, but I read Dante every year since about 10 years. All what I know I got from commentators and scholars, nothing, unfortunately, is my personal discover. I am a mom and a wife that loves the DC, nothing else. Sorry for my poor English, I am a (legal) immigrant from Italy since 2010 and I never studied English, just got it from books and good Americans friends... and amazing American scholars of Dante books.
The main reason I want to add something is that, I realized in these years that my understanding of the DC changed radically the moment I read Prof. Cornish, Prof. Freccero and Prof. Singleton comments. I suggest to everyone to read them, if you did not do yet.
For now, I would like to tell about the points Prof. Singleton made in 1954 and later (elaborating info from several sources, nothing is my own invention):
1) A key point about Dante is that the Poet "dramatizes, but never invents" the theological doctrine of his time, essentially using his poetry to vividly portray existing beliefs rather than creating new ones. THIS IS IMPORTANT, IN CASE WE THINK HE IS JUST A NORMAL CHURCHGOER…HE STUDIED IN THE TWO MAJOR LIBRARIES AVAILABLE IN FLORENCE, THE TWO CHURCHES OF THE DOMINICANS AND THE FRANCISCAN. HE KNOWS THEOLOGY BETTER THAN THE POPE :)
2) “THE FICTION OF THE DIVINE COMEDY IS THAT IT IS NOT A FICTION.” (Charles S. Singleton, Dante Studies I: Elements of Structure)
AND I WOULD ADD, WE MUST BELIEVE IT, IF WE WANT TO GO IN HEAVEN AS THE PILGRIM AND COME BACK RENEWED AS THE POET. ESPECIALLY, WE MUST BELIEVE IT, OR WE WILL NOT UNDERSTAND AND ENJOY WHAT WE ARE READING NOW!
3) Dante needs to be contextualized in medieval time or we do not get the depth and importance of his claims for our time. IT IS ALSO IMPORTANT TO MAKE MEANINGFUL PARALLELS WITH OUR TIME AND TRY TO IMAGINE IN OUR TIME THE INFERNAL IMAGES.
4) the DC's structure is an imitation of two works by God, the created universe with its symbolism and the Holy Scripture with its allegory, therefore we must read beyond the literal level, looking for what it is pointing to.
WHAT ABOUT INFERNO 4?
THE HARROWING OF HELL is a fundamental point in this canto that we can’t ignore. Dante asks to Vergil/reason about it, to show us that Vergil cannot know a lot, since he is not Christian. It is one of the first coup against Vergil that will end up with his substitution by Beatrice. Why?
a) Augustine and all the fathers of the Church, testifies in multiple places in their writings to how reason puts man on the road toward God, but it is faith that informs and elevates reason, taking it beyond its natural limitations. Natural Reason alone will never be able to reach a complete knowledge of God, while faith can.
b) The image of the Harrowing of Hell and the earthquake that followed, of which we will be aware of traces during the whole descent, clashes brutally with this ordinate and polite image of the educated, intelligent, clean group of souls in Limbo.
This “University Campus” (A.Cornish) with green perfectly kept grass is enlightened by a human fire that recall, not a case, that one robbed from the false pagan gods by Prometheus: a human fire, like their reasoning! While the souls that were swift away by Jesus, when he descended in hell during His death, will be in a place where forever they will be blessed by the Light of that Sun that we call eternal, like the souls in heaven! We must meditate on this difference, i think.
In general, reading the DC, we must see these clashes; we must look behind the stories and especially the words of the damned. AND KEEP IN MIND THAT THEY ARE IN HELL, THEREFORE THEY ARE BAD…NO OTHER POSSIBILITY, OR GOD WAS WRONG TO PUT THEM THERE!
BELIEVE IN THE FICTION! DON'T BELIEVE THE DAMNED!
OUR POET FILLS UP THE INFERNO WITH TRAPS AND CLUES TO HELP US TO SEE THE TRUTH, THAT IS COMPLETELY ABSENT IN THESE SOULS. Let's search the traps!
The more we feel compassion and sorry for these souls, the less we are following Dante in his journey…beware to not end up to stop here, because of the fantastic and welcoming company, like i would have done in the past.
Ask yourself some questions: Could Dante be so base to relegate here people just because they did not have a chance to meet Jesus, personally or in the Gospels?
As Virgil would like we believe…Virgil is reason, but reason can be used to sin.
Reason is a great thing, but cannot bring us to the final destination where Dante is direct.
Part of the problem is that reason has been wounded by the Fall and dimmed by the effects of sin THAT PRODUCES WHIMS, EMOTIONS AND PASSIONS.
REASON, BASED IN MAN’S FINITUDE, CANNOT COMPREHEND THE INFINITE MYSTERIES OF FAITH, EVEN WHILE POINTING TOWARDS THEM, HOWEVER INDISTINCTLY.
The contrast between reading Scripture before and after faith is a staple in Augustine writings, because it demonstrated how reason, for all of its goodness and worth, can only comprehend a certain circumscribed reality and provide limited results.
MAN, THE RATIONAL ANIMAL, IS MEANT FOR DIVINE COMMUNION, AND THEREFORE REQUIRES AN INFUSION OF DIVINE LIFE.
GRACE, THE DIVINE LIFE OF GOD, FILLS MAN AND GIFTS HIM FAITH, HOPE, AND LOVE.
WHO IS GRACE IN THE DC? NOT VIRGIL, BUT BEA.
Dante here is trying to show us, that the ancient cultures received sparks of revelation, but they mainly misunderstood in their retelling. For example, Orfeo’s legend has its origin in pagan antiquity and seems an anticipation of Christ's Harrowing of hell, but how confused! and this is the reason why we see that all the guardians in hell are ancient mythological figures.
In that past time, nevertheless, God revealed himself to all individuals and populations, and some of them followed His voice and ended up in Purgatorio and Paradiso. Mainly, the salvation, at that time as nowadays in country where there is no Church, was a personal individual affair for those not from Jews descendance, and those people that accepted God were ultimately saved by Jesus in his descent in Hell. (The Catechism says that even today people unaware or impossibilitated to be baptized can be saved by God, because God has no limits. CCC 1257, 847, 848)
Dante is making a distinction with the ones in Limbo, not because he wants to be mean, or he is just “medieval”, or he is putting in hell his enemies, or simply does not know some things…as many critics of the 1800 and 1900 have suggested, but simply because he wants to show us the right path to Heaven...and the wrong one!!! what better way to show famous and beloved people in hell to shock readers and fix in their minds what is wrong and what is right! There are other reasons, poetic and personal, that we will find out later, but his main point is to train us to recognize evil even and especially where it seems a sad innocent story.
My suggestion is to walk this journey as a boot camp in a fairy tale, beware of the traps and wolves! Always think that they hide something to push you to sin.
Hope this can help to get out of hell! and thanks again to read together.
i forgot one important thing: i learned a lot considering the damned in hell a representation of my personal sins. all of them, even the ones at the bottom. it is impressive how we carry inside sparks of evil...at least this is what i found in myself. it was useful!
A lot to dissect in this wonderful Canto, which you’ve done quite comprehensively.
I was struck as I read the Canto by two unstated, but important, influences that reinforce your point about eloquent articulation. Theology and classical philosophy are (obviously) the primary transoms of the poem’s “scaffolding” — but what holds them together? I believe it’s two key “couplers” of contemporary medieval society: *Fama* and *Chivalry.*
*Fama* refers to the medieval conceptualization of reputation or public standing, in particular, how individuals were perceived within their communities — it encompassed honor, gossip, and the social dynamics that influenced how a person’s character and actions were discussed and interpreted by others.
The chivalric code was the other significant societal influence. It was a moral ideal, social construct and behavioral framework that defined aristocratic conduct. It blended faith, martial prowess, and courtly etiquette into the defining algorithm for personhood.
Much of life in Dante’s day was conducted in public. If you want a sense of how important “Fama” was, the Tuscan poet Guittone d’Arezzo wrote “for shame is more to be feared than death, / … for a wise man ought to sincerely love / a beautiful death more than life, / for each person should believe that he was created / not to stay, but to pass through with honor”. One source noted that all members of the Florentine social hierarchy subscribed to the sentiment that “a man who does not look to his fama is insane, and though living, might as well be dead.” (Sounds a bit like a medieval social credit system…!) When you consider that the “males of aristocratic families were trained to do violence, routinely carried arms, and were prickly about their honor,” you can see why “bona fama” (good reputation) and “mala fama” (bad reputation) were deadly serious business. (Of course chivalry also had its dark side, and Dante does not hesitate in the Commedia to condemn its worst abuses — pride, violence, and moral corruption.) We will see plenty of instances of “bona and mala fama” in Cantos to come.
I think Fama (and chivalry) are intimated in lines like “…just as seemly as our speech was there.” The keynoting of status/reputation and exchange of careful courtesies (the “seemly speech”) in Canto IV’s Limbo reflect the chivalric code and “Fama” — honor and reputation as both a connective tissue and a currency — in life and death. Virgil, of course, is the first, but not the last exemplar of chivalric virtues in the Commedia — wisdom, reason, loyalty, moral integrity, and courage. Beatrice, and Dante’s idealized relationship with his female “patrons” provided moral and emotional inspiration for him, and were a chivalric embodiment of virtue, purity, and moral excellence.
Dante’s journey could even be viewed as a chivalric quest for spiritual enlightenment — he’s a knight-pilgrim adorned in spiritual armor!
Two excellent books for reference:
— Chivalry and Violence in Medieval Europe
— Fama: The Politics of Talk and Reputation in Medieval Europe
Very enlightening again Corey, thank you. Fama and chivalry much reminded me the concept of building “kleos” through “tîmê” in ancient Greeks. This effort to achieve moral excellence was an ongoing phase,it seems, ending maybe with the knighthood of Medieval Age.
That’s an excellent comparison — it’s fascinating to see how societal “machinery” with respect to gauging reputation and fame or renown adapts with the times. I think the chivalric code receded with the decline of feudalism, the lessened influence of aristocracy, and the advent of the Renaissance, but fama sure seems to have a modern era equivalent — social media. Visibility and public judgment, gossip, community validation or censure, and the fragility of reputation — makes one wonder what Dante would have made of X or TikTok.
Oh yes the social media with its public adoration and its cancel culture just like the public shaming and social ostracism of the past ages. I always wonder what the great thinkers would think about today’s society; it’s a shame that we can judge the ancients but they don’t have the same opportunity :)
These commentaries are a treasure house of many rooms. Thank you so much. Of many treasures here, this observation I thought particularly insightful: “The whole purpose of intellect is to transform what at first seems chaotic working of nature into a coherent vision. To make any knowledge practical to oneself and to the humanity one should first be able to articulate it properly. Your mind may hold countless fragments of information, but it is your ability to eloquently articulate how these pieces connect that transforms mere information into true knowledge.”
Thank you so much Susan! Would you mind if I copy your insightful comment to the discussion thread? :) Or would you prefer doing it yourself? :) here it is and please let me know!
https://open.substack.com/chat/posts/625d5c89-1e85-4db6-969b-f203d8ae710f
Your commentaries are just fantastic, Vashik! Thank you so much for doing this read-along. I've tried to read TDC on several occasions and was afraid that I might go to my grave first. Now, it seems I will be getting some idea of where I'm going.
Thank you so much for your kind words. I was a bit slow this time with launching the discussion thread, feel free to join and share your impressions and thoughts! :)
https://open.substack.com/chat/posts/625d5c89-1e85-4db6-969b-f203d8ae710f
I have always thought that one of the conundrums of logic in Christianity is that those who came before had zero chance of entering heaven. Such an inequity! In this Canto Dante does a Hail Mary and sends Jesus to Limbo to issue a pardon of sorts to some of the big names of pre-Christian lore. Am I reading this correctly?
So much interesting to read your comments and your useful list of names. i hope my long comment does not disturb, but i have a personal passion for canto 4. LIMBO always attracted me as a possible end of life...until i read the right scholars of Dante and realized it was a mistaken dream. here is my explanation why i don't want to be in Limbo.
I would like to add some words about canto 4, because I think it is a fundamental passage to understand how Inferno works and how we Readers should relate with the infernal encounters of Dante-Pilgrim.
I am not a scholar, but I read Dante every year since about 10 years. All what I know I got from commentators and scholars, nothing, unfortunately, is my personal discover. I am a mom and a wife that loves the DC, nothing else. Sorry for my poor English, I am a (legal) immigrant from Italy since 2010 and I never studied English, just got it from books and good Americans friends... and amazing American scholars of Dante books.
The main reason I want to add something is that, I realized in these years that my understanding of the DC changed radically the moment I read Prof. Cornish, Prof. Freccero and Prof. Singleton comments. I suggest to everyone to read them, if you did not do yet.
For now, I would like to tell about the points Prof. Singleton made in 1954 and later (elaborating info from several sources, nothing is my own invention):
1) A key point about Dante is that the Poet "dramatizes, but never invents" the theological doctrine of his time, essentially using his poetry to vividly portray existing beliefs rather than creating new ones. THIS IS IMPORTANT, IN CASE WE THINK HE IS JUST A NORMAL CHURCHGOER…HE STUDIED IN THE TWO MAJOR LIBRARIES AVAILABLE IN FLORENCE, THE TWO CHURCHES OF THE DOMINICANS AND THE FRANCISCAN. HE KNOWS THEOLOGY BETTER THAN THE POPE :)
2) “THE FICTION OF THE DIVINE COMEDY IS THAT IT IS NOT A FICTION.” (Charles S. Singleton, Dante Studies I: Elements of Structure)
AND I WOULD ADD, WE MUST BELIEVE IT, IF WE WANT TO GO IN HEAVEN AS THE PILGRIM AND COME BACK RENEWED AS THE POET. ESPECIALLY, WE MUST BELIEVE IT, OR WE WILL NOT UNDERSTAND AND ENJOY WHAT WE ARE READING NOW!
3) Dante needs to be contextualized in medieval time or we do not get the depth and importance of his claims for our time. IT IS ALSO IMPORTANT TO MAKE MEANINGFUL PARALLELS WITH OUR TIME AND TRY TO IMAGINE IN OUR TIME THE INFERNAL IMAGES.
4) the DC's structure is an imitation of two works by God, the created universe with its symbolism and the Holy Scripture with its allegory, therefore we must read beyond the literal level, looking for what it is pointing to.
WHAT ABOUT INFERNO 4?
THE HARROWING OF HELL is a fundamental point in this canto that we can’t ignore. Dante asks to Vergil/reason about it, to show us that Vergil cannot know a lot, since he is not Christian. It is one of the first coup against Vergil that will end up with his substitution by Beatrice. Why?
a) Augustine and all the fathers of the Church, testifies in multiple places in their writings to how reason puts man on the road toward God, but it is faith that informs and elevates reason, taking it beyond its natural limitations. Natural Reason alone will never be able to reach a complete knowledge of God, while faith can.
b) The image of the Harrowing of Hell and the earthquake that followed, of which we will be aware of traces during the whole descent, clashes brutally with this ordinate and polite image of the educated, intelligent, clean group of souls in Limbo.
This “University Campus” (A.Cornish) with green perfectly kept grass is enlightened by a human fire that recall, not a case, that one robbed from the false pagan gods by Prometheus: a human fire, like their reasoning! While the souls that were swift away by Jesus, when he descended in hell during His death, will be in a place where forever they will be blessed by the Light of that Sun that we call eternal, like the souls in heaven! We must meditate on this difference, i think.
In general, reading the DC, we must see these clashes; we must look behind the stories and especially the words of the damned. AND KEEP IN MIND THAT THEY ARE IN HELL, THEREFORE THEY ARE BAD…NO OTHER POSSIBILITY, OR GOD WAS WRONG TO PUT THEM THERE!
BELIEVE IN THE FICTION! DON'T BELIEVE THE DAMNED!
OUR POET FILLS UP THE INFERNO WITH TRAPS AND CLUES TO HELP US TO SEE THE TRUTH, THAT IS COMPLETELY ABSENT IN THESE SOULS. Let's search the traps!
The more we feel compassion and sorry for these souls, the less we are following Dante in his journey…beware to not end up to stop here, because of the fantastic and welcoming company, like i would have done in the past.
Ask yourself some questions: Could Dante be so base to relegate here people just because they did not have a chance to meet Jesus, personally or in the Gospels?
As Virgil would like we believe…Virgil is reason, but reason can be used to sin.
Reason is a great thing, but cannot bring us to the final destination where Dante is direct.
Part of the problem is that reason has been wounded by the Fall and dimmed by the effects of sin THAT PRODUCES WHIMS, EMOTIONS AND PASSIONS.
REASON, BASED IN MAN’S FINITUDE, CANNOT COMPREHEND THE INFINITE MYSTERIES OF FAITH, EVEN WHILE POINTING TOWARDS THEM, HOWEVER INDISTINCTLY.
The contrast between reading Scripture before and after faith is a staple in Augustine writings, because it demonstrated how reason, for all of its goodness and worth, can only comprehend a certain circumscribed reality and provide limited results.
MAN, THE RATIONAL ANIMAL, IS MEANT FOR DIVINE COMMUNION, AND THEREFORE REQUIRES AN INFUSION OF DIVINE LIFE.
GRACE, THE DIVINE LIFE OF GOD, FILLS MAN AND GIFTS HIM FAITH, HOPE, AND LOVE.
WHO IS GRACE IN THE DC? NOT VIRGIL, BUT BEA.
Dante here is trying to show us, that the ancient cultures received sparks of revelation, but they mainly misunderstood in their retelling. For example, Orfeo’s legend has its origin in pagan antiquity and seems an anticipation of Christ's Harrowing of hell, but how confused! and this is the reason why we see that all the guardians in hell are ancient mythological figures.
In that past time, nevertheless, God revealed himself to all individuals and populations, and some of them followed His voice and ended up in Purgatorio and Paradiso. Mainly, the salvation, at that time as nowadays in country where there is no Church, was a personal individual affair for those not from Jews descendance, and those people that accepted God were ultimately saved by Jesus in his descent in Hell. (The Catechism says that even today people unaware or impossibilitated to be baptized can be saved by God, because God has no limits. CCC 1257, 847, 848)
Dante is making a distinction with the ones in Limbo, not because he wants to be mean, or he is just “medieval”, or he is putting in hell his enemies, or simply does not know some things…as many critics of the 1800 and 1900 have suggested, but simply because he wants to show us the right path to Heaven...and the wrong one!!! what better way to show famous and beloved people in hell to shock readers and fix in their minds what is wrong and what is right! There are other reasons, poetic and personal, that we will find out later, but his main point is to train us to recognize evil even and especially where it seems a sad innocent story.
My suggestion is to walk this journey as a boot camp in a fairy tale, beware of the traps and wolves! Always think that they hide something to push you to sin.
Hope this can help to get out of hell! and thanks again to read together.
i forgot one important thing: i learned a lot considering the damned in hell a representation of my personal sins. all of them, even the ones at the bottom. it is impressive how we carry inside sparks of evil...at least this is what i found in myself. it was useful!
A lot to dissect in this wonderful Canto, which you’ve done quite comprehensively.
I was struck as I read the Canto by two unstated, but important, influences that reinforce your point about eloquent articulation. Theology and classical philosophy are (obviously) the primary transoms of the poem’s “scaffolding” — but what holds them together? I believe it’s two key “couplers” of contemporary medieval society: *Fama* and *Chivalry.*
*Fama* refers to the medieval conceptualization of reputation or public standing, in particular, how individuals were perceived within their communities — it encompassed honor, gossip, and the social dynamics that influenced how a person’s character and actions were discussed and interpreted by others.
The chivalric code was the other significant societal influence. It was a moral ideal, social construct and behavioral framework that defined aristocratic conduct. It blended faith, martial prowess, and courtly etiquette into the defining algorithm for personhood.
Much of life in Dante’s day was conducted in public. If you want a sense of how important “Fama” was, the Tuscan poet Guittone d’Arezzo wrote “for shame is more to be feared than death, / … for a wise man ought to sincerely love / a beautiful death more than life, / for each person should believe that he was created / not to stay, but to pass through with honor”. One source noted that all members of the Florentine social hierarchy subscribed to the sentiment that “a man who does not look to his fama is insane, and though living, might as well be dead.” (Sounds a bit like a medieval social credit system…!) When you consider that the “males of aristocratic families were trained to do violence, routinely carried arms, and were prickly about their honor,” you can see why “bona fama” (good reputation) and “mala fama” (bad reputation) were deadly serious business. (Of course chivalry also had its dark side, and Dante does not hesitate in the Commedia to condemn its worst abuses — pride, violence, and moral corruption.) We will see plenty of instances of “bona and mala fama” in Cantos to come.
I think Fama (and chivalry) are intimated in lines like “…just as seemly as our speech was there.” The keynoting of status/reputation and exchange of careful courtesies (the “seemly speech”) in Canto IV’s Limbo reflect the chivalric code and “Fama” — honor and reputation as both a connective tissue and a currency — in life and death. Virgil, of course, is the first, but not the last exemplar of chivalric virtues in the Commedia — wisdom, reason, loyalty, moral integrity, and courage. Beatrice, and Dante’s idealized relationship with his female “patrons” provided moral and emotional inspiration for him, and were a chivalric embodiment of virtue, purity, and moral excellence.
Dante’s journey could even be viewed as a chivalric quest for spiritual enlightenment — he’s a knight-pilgrim adorned in spiritual armor!
Two excellent books for reference:
— Chivalry and Violence in Medieval Europe
— Fama: The Politics of Talk and Reputation in Medieval Europe
Very enlightening again Corey, thank you. Fama and chivalry much reminded me the concept of building “kleos” through “tîmê” in ancient Greeks. This effort to achieve moral excellence was an ongoing phase,it seems, ending maybe with the knighthood of Medieval Age.
That’s an excellent comparison — it’s fascinating to see how societal “machinery” with respect to gauging reputation and fame or renown adapts with the times. I think the chivalric code receded with the decline of feudalism, the lessened influence of aristocracy, and the advent of the Renaissance, but fama sure seems to have a modern era equivalent — social media. Visibility and public judgment, gossip, community validation or censure, and the fragility of reputation — makes one wonder what Dante would have made of X or TikTok.
Oh yes the social media with its public adoration and its cancel culture just like the public shaming and social ostracism of the past ages. I always wonder what the great thinkers would think about today’s society; it’s a shame that we can judge the ancients but they don’t have the same opportunity :)
Jesus got a lot done, even on his sabbatical.