One fascinating aspect of Dante’s political thinking is how it’s driven by civil strife. He was a participant and victim — as is anyone subject to the poisonous brew of “envy, pride and avariciousness.” The Alexandrian historian Appian said about the Roman Civil Wars: “It is a story worth the attention of any who wish to contemplate limitless human ambition, terrible lust for power, indefatigable patience, and evil in ten thousands shapes.” Dante had rich inspiration for his “ten thousand evil shapes,” and the political commentary in the Divine Comedy, given the unnatural, irrational, sinful, wicked and devilish political strife of Florence. The city, beset by civil strife, is reproducing the selva obscura (dark wood) Dante first tried to elude.
The parallel between Dante and John Milton (“Paradise Lost”) is striking. Both lived in turbulent times (Dante and the *cosmic-level* disorder of Florence), and Milton during the English Civil War. They were both personally invested — and lost so much. As a result, both their works reflect an intense examination of issues such as justice, authority, divine order, righteousness, betrayal, alienation, and disillusionment. Dante is much more explicit in castigating transgressors than Milton’s oblique approach, but both take a hammer to instigators that revel in human disorder over divine order. The contrast is profound — Florence, as Augustine’s City of Man, with its factions and fratricide and systematic organization of hatreds, or his Civitas Dei, the City of God, heavenly, eternal, and rooted in divine love.
Ciacco’s “Dispatches from the future” set the despairing tone for this Canto, and that tone is amplified by the cacophony surrounding the pilgrim — the relentless frenzy and incoherent clamor — in contrast to Francesca’s sighing lilt in Canto V. In V we learned about the disruptive quality of desire — and now it’s magnified in the insatiable appetite of gluttony. The choice is stark — be consumed by mindless desire, be devoured by glutinous beasts, or partake of the ultimate banquet: Jesus giving the bread and wine to His disciples: “This is my body…this is my blood…”
To the question of what form our own city in Hell would take: The comedian in me says the “Department of Motor Vehicles,” but the historian says Saint Augustine’s Hippo, on the edge of chaos: ““When the Vandals were hammering at the gates of Hippo, Augustine’s city, the groans of the dying defenders on the wall mingled with the roar of the spectators in the circus, more concerned with their daily entertainment than with even their ultimate personal safety.” (Lewis Mumford, “The History of the City,” 1961)
Four short observations (I’m hoping for bonus points):
Cerberus: Dog, or “doglike?” Most importantly, its three-headedness foreshadows the three-headed Lucifer — both are anti-Trinitarian monsters devouring humans.
The “City as a Body” brings the Fable of Menenius to mind.
The “two men” — have variously been interpreted as historical figures, as symbolizing the moral and political decay of the city (“best we can do is two”), or as justice and righteousness.
The fate of the Florence elites illustrates the distance between the human perspective (the Pilgrim’s) and the judgment we make as humans, and the divine judgment on the dealings and doings of famous people — the discrepancy between their “reputation” on earth where they are judged one way, and then the real and final judgment of worth and value.
Thanks Kathleen. I second the motion for Vashik and Lisa to lead us on other expeditions beyond the Divine Comedy. I don’t have any educational credentials related to classical literature — my degrees are in entirely unrelated fields. I recently retired, and committed myself to Scottish philosopher David Hume’s guidance for leaving the workforce: “I live as I please, spend my time according to my fancy, keep a plentiful table for myself and my friends, and amuse myself with reading and society.”
Thank you for your in-depth commentary. I hope sometime in the future, Vashik will lead us through St. Augustine’s “The City of God.” I look forward to reading your thoughts on future Cantos as well. I am curious to find out about your educational background if you care to share it. Thanks, again for taking the time to write your commentary.
There is, as always, a surfeit of brilliant commentary and helpful information here. I agree, too, that it is good to be careful about engaging in what historians call “presentism,” and I want to offer a cautionary note on the issue of obesity.
If we ascribe obesity to gluttony, we are in danger of blaming individuals for circumstances not in their control. As this article notes in conclusion: “Halting U.S. diabesity epidemic and curtailing its health cost may necessitate addressing poverty.” The gluttons in wealthy countries like the US are not the poor, but wealthier individuals who have no concern for or willingness to address the plight of the poor.
Hi, Dinesh: I could not get a sense of the fellow’s credentials, and as the video is very long, forgive me if I would rather move on in reading Dante! I think Kathleen’s question is a good one, and points to the complexities attendant to the causes and remedies relating to this issue. I commend to anyone interested in these issues or other complex topics related to health and health care Dr. Eric Topol’s Ground Truths (also here on Substack). In the linked conversation, he speaks with Dr. Kevin Hall, a Senior Investigator at the National Institutes of Health, and Section Chief of the Integrative Physiology Section, NIDDK. https://erictopol.substack.com/p/kevin-hall-what-should-we-eat I find Dr. Topol a bit like our guides here, and like Dante, with unending curiosity and desire for knowledge and a constant seeker after the truth.
Your question isn't valid. Nauru, Tonga, Kiribati, Jordan, and Egypt are all in the "developing world", and all have similar, slightly higher, and slightly lower rates of obesity than the United States.
Interesting that you note that, as I just ran across a study demonstrating that very point, I think it was with regard to India, though not sure, today. There is just a lot to consider here in terms of environmental and other contributing factors beyond individual responsibility, though of course public health should assist people in knowing how to make the best choices they can, to the extent that is possible.
I love the concept of 'disordered appetites'. Not just obesity of course, but any excess craving, any thing taken to excess is usually detrimental. We are a society of excess. Some just get us faster than others. Food slow, alcohol faster, drugs fastest. Many best left alone entirely. The 'middle way' for most of the rest.
Loving your commentary. So much of our selves in this. I'm starting to get a little nervous! Thank you again:)
wow thank you to everybody, but especially to Vashik, for these last comments. i never liked canto 6, because i did not understood its profound message. thanks to make it so clear and understandable
This Canto suggests to me that Dante understood hunger. Had he intended to populate this Circle with those whose sin was only over-eating, I would expect contrapasso theory to impose the physical and mental discomforts of hunger as punishment. I would expect to see this Circle populated with corpulent, even distended bodies. Instead, Dante tells us that he walks over “empty images” that only “seem like persons.” Nor does the shade Ciacco belabor memories of past banqueting, or speak to having hunger pangs. So the gluttonous are not hungry. They are empty. For all they consumed, materially or otherwise, they only saw more to be taken. For all they filled themselves up, they never grasped the meaning of “enough”. I think that’s why the quote from Hobbes was such a good choice to include in this Post.
I can't read Canto VI without looking at my own "disordered appetites" which, while not consistent, happen with enough frequency that I'm easily able to recognize them.
But since I won't be much pleased by ingesting mud, I "could" be worse off!
So much to ponder in Canto VI.
One fascinating aspect of Dante’s political thinking is how it’s driven by civil strife. He was a participant and victim — as is anyone subject to the poisonous brew of “envy, pride and avariciousness.” The Alexandrian historian Appian said about the Roman Civil Wars: “It is a story worth the attention of any who wish to contemplate limitless human ambition, terrible lust for power, indefatigable patience, and evil in ten thousands shapes.” Dante had rich inspiration for his “ten thousand evil shapes,” and the political commentary in the Divine Comedy, given the unnatural, irrational, sinful, wicked and devilish political strife of Florence. The city, beset by civil strife, is reproducing the selva obscura (dark wood) Dante first tried to elude.
The parallel between Dante and John Milton (“Paradise Lost”) is striking. Both lived in turbulent times (Dante and the *cosmic-level* disorder of Florence), and Milton during the English Civil War. They were both personally invested — and lost so much. As a result, both their works reflect an intense examination of issues such as justice, authority, divine order, righteousness, betrayal, alienation, and disillusionment. Dante is much more explicit in castigating transgressors than Milton’s oblique approach, but both take a hammer to instigators that revel in human disorder over divine order. The contrast is profound — Florence, as Augustine’s City of Man, with its factions and fratricide and systematic organization of hatreds, or his Civitas Dei, the City of God, heavenly, eternal, and rooted in divine love.
Ciacco’s “Dispatches from the future” set the despairing tone for this Canto, and that tone is amplified by the cacophony surrounding the pilgrim — the relentless frenzy and incoherent clamor — in contrast to Francesca’s sighing lilt in Canto V. In V we learned about the disruptive quality of desire — and now it’s magnified in the insatiable appetite of gluttony. The choice is stark — be consumed by mindless desire, be devoured by glutinous beasts, or partake of the ultimate banquet: Jesus giving the bread and wine to His disciples: “This is my body…this is my blood…”
To the question of what form our own city in Hell would take: The comedian in me says the “Department of Motor Vehicles,” but the historian says Saint Augustine’s Hippo, on the edge of chaos: ““When the Vandals were hammering at the gates of Hippo, Augustine’s city, the groans of the dying defenders on the wall mingled with the roar of the spectators in the circus, more concerned with their daily entertainment than with even their ultimate personal safety.” (Lewis Mumford, “The History of the City,” 1961)
Four short observations (I’m hoping for bonus points):
Cerberus: Dog, or “doglike?” Most importantly, its three-headedness foreshadows the three-headed Lucifer — both are anti-Trinitarian monsters devouring humans.
The “City as a Body” brings the Fable of Menenius to mind.
The “two men” — have variously been interpreted as historical figures, as symbolizing the moral and political decay of the city (“best we can do is two”), or as justice and righteousness.
The fate of the Florence elites illustrates the distance between the human perspective (the Pilgrim’s) and the judgment we make as humans, and the divine judgment on the dealings and doings of famous people — the discrepancy between their “reputation” on earth where they are judged one way, and then the real and final judgment of worth and value.
I’ll crosspost this to the thread, too.
City as a Body reminded me of Plato's Republic.
Brilliant post, Corey!
Thanks Kathleen. I second the motion for Vashik and Lisa to lead us on other expeditions beyond the Divine Comedy. I don’t have any educational credentials related to classical literature — my degrees are in entirely unrelated fields. I recently retired, and committed myself to Scottish philosopher David Hume’s guidance for leaving the workforce: “I live as I please, spend my time according to my fancy, keep a plentiful table for myself and my friends, and amuse myself with reading and society.”
Thank you for your in-depth commentary. I hope sometime in the future, Vashik will lead us through St. Augustine’s “The City of God.” I look forward to reading your thoughts on future Cantos as well. I am curious to find out about your educational background if you care to share it. Thanks, again for taking the time to write your commentary.
That would be amazing - I would love someone to read City of God with…
There is, as always, a surfeit of brilliant commentary and helpful information here. I agree, too, that it is good to be careful about engaging in what historians call “presentism,” and I want to offer a cautionary note on the issue of obesity.
There is a wealth of information available to demonstrate that the causes of obesity in the US, where I live, are much more subtle and multi-dimensional than personal gluttony can possibly encompass. For example, studies like this one show a high correlation of obesity with poverty: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3198075/#:~:text=In%20contrast%20to%20international%20trends,145%25%20greater%20than%20wealthy%20counties.
If we ascribe obesity to gluttony, we are in danger of blaming individuals for circumstances not in their control. As this article notes in conclusion: “Halting U.S. diabesity epidemic and curtailing its health cost may necessitate addressing poverty.” The gluttons in wealthy countries like the US are not the poor, but wealthier individuals who have no concern for or willingness to address the plight of the poor.
https://youtu.be/dm1dSSZ7k3w?feature=shared
This video contains a good discussion on the correlation between obesity and poverty.
Hi, Dinesh: I could not get a sense of the fellow’s credentials, and as the video is very long, forgive me if I would rather move on in reading Dante! I think Kathleen’s question is a good one, and points to the complexities attendant to the causes and remedies relating to this issue. I commend to anyone interested in these issues or other complex topics related to health and health care Dr. Eric Topol’s Ground Truths (also here on Substack). In the linked conversation, he speaks with Dr. Kevin Hall, a Senior Investigator at the National Institutes of Health, and Section Chief of the Integrative Physiology Section, NIDDK. https://erictopol.substack.com/p/kevin-hall-what-should-we-eat I find Dr. Topol a bit like our guides here, and like Dante, with unending curiosity and desire for knowledge and a constant seeker after the truth.
Why is there not raging obesity in so-called Third World Countries? Please don’t respond. I understand where you are coming from.
Your question isn't valid. Nauru, Tonga, Kiribati, Jordan, and Egypt are all in the "developing world", and all have similar, slightly higher, and slightly lower rates of obesity than the United States.
Interesting that you note that, as I just ran across a study demonstrating that very point, I think it was with regard to India, though not sure, today. There is just a lot to consider here in terms of environmental and other contributing factors beyond individual responsibility, though of course public health should assist people in knowing how to make the best choices they can, to the extent that is possible.
I think that’s a very good question, actually. So I hope you won’t mind that I did respond. There is a lot to consider here!
Susan, I appreciate your kind reply.
I love the concept of 'disordered appetites'. Not just obesity of course, but any excess craving, any thing taken to excess is usually detrimental. We are a society of excess. Some just get us faster than others. Food slow, alcohol faster, drugs fastest. Many best left alone entirely. The 'middle way' for most of the rest.
Loving your commentary. So much of our selves in this. I'm starting to get a little nervous! Thank you again:)
wow thank you to everybody, but especially to Vashik, for these last comments. i never liked canto 6, because i did not understood its profound message. thanks to make it so clear and understandable
This Canto suggests to me that Dante understood hunger. Had he intended to populate this Circle with those whose sin was only over-eating, I would expect contrapasso theory to impose the physical and mental discomforts of hunger as punishment. I would expect to see this Circle populated with corpulent, even distended bodies. Instead, Dante tells us that he walks over “empty images” that only “seem like persons.” Nor does the shade Ciacco belabor memories of past banqueting, or speak to having hunger pangs. So the gluttonous are not hungry. They are empty. For all they consumed, materially or otherwise, they only saw more to be taken. For all they filled themselves up, they never grasped the meaning of “enough”. I think that’s why the quote from Hobbes was such a good choice to include in this Post.
I can't read Canto VI without looking at my own "disordered appetites" which, while not consistent, happen with enough frequency that I'm easily able to recognize them.
But since I won't be much pleased by ingesting mud, I "could" be worse off!