Despite the of chiding of his underworld guide Virgil, I continue to be moved by Dante's humanity and compassion in this hellish place. "... now think for yourself how I could ever keep my own face dry when I beheld our image so nearby and so awry that tears, down from the eyes, bathed buttocks, running down the cleft. Of course I wept, leaning against a rock along that rugged ridge" (Mandelbaum XX: 20-26). When the fate of his fellow human beings calls for empathy it's there, as is his sense of righteous justice towards the more serious sinners. The delicate balance between these two states has been captured so well in his words.
I love the art, the Cavafy poem, the Carlo Rovelli reference,and the idea of the Boethius readalong! The intellectual and philosophical exercises here are outstanding. If only there were more uninterrupted hours in the day!
A most troubling canto that caused me much discomfort.
Today, humanism is perverted into transhumanism, and liberalism into neoliberalism. People turn from the hypocritical catholic church which increasingly stands with both. Franchised protestant churches endorse extreme zionism through twisted biblical interpretation. Pagan symbolism of an exceedingly satanic bent is blatantly featured in western entertainment and sporting mega events. The growth religions are increasingly techno scientism and debauched paganism.
Occult practices drove early enlightenment discoverys. The symbolism is prevalent in popular culture and has destructive satanic intent by its creators. The populace, mostly unknowingly to them, participates in these mass group practices. Amateur practitioners seek dangerous 'divine' guidance and insight into their choices and the future from subtle forces and beings, possessing neither the wisdom nor pureness of heart to avoid harmful results.
Vashik, I am not sure if I have commented thusly but Inferno is the most frightening thing I have ever read - to the point I keep putting off the reading! It is only the idea that Paradiso must be so beautiful, as well as your guide and the beautiful art, that keeps me persisting with this.
Quite a controversial Canto. It seems…shrill and defensive. Dante and Virgil try hard to remove themselves and each other from complicity in these sinful practices. Dante’s embarrassed about flirting with astrology, as you note, and strives to confer legitimacy on Virgil so the Roman can remove the stain of divination from his poem and himself (hence his longest, most strident speech in the Divine Comedy. More about his poem’s continued divination misuse in a moment…)
I think man’s tendency to “hedge his bets” accounts for the persistent practices of the “fortune-teller, soothsayer, charmer, diviner, or caster of spells…consulter “of ghosts and spirits” or seeker of “oracles from the dead.” (That’s the “Thou shalt not” list in Deuteronomy 18:11–12). Since man, in the words of Barbara Tuchman, “lives close to the inexplicable” and his faith and reason do not address every mystery, man augments them with Deuteronomy’s “supplements.” The question “Who are you going to believe?” is not an either / or proposition for most of humanity; the two explanatory constructs (the sacrament and the supplements) share contested space in man’s reasoning, soul, and culture.
While Dante is unequivocally condemnatory, the Church’s approach to this conundrum is best described as…vacillating. The Church did its best to combat superstition, but, TBH, often absorbed, adapted or tolerated elements of pagan practices, festivals, and traditions to facilitate conversion. It made Christianity more relatable and acceptable to new converts, but meant some less desirable pre-Christian practices slipped in and persisted.
Man’s free will-based, complex relationship with God also includes the potential for impertinence (behavior that is rude and does not show respect, especially to someone older or in a higher position). The sinners in Canto XX were brazenly impertinent, and the Bible’s unequivocal about their fate: “A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.” (Leviticus 20:27) As a side note, Milton’s “Paradise Lost” is, to me, a lesson about the consequences of extreme impertinence (committed first by Satan and his fellow fallen angels, and then by Adam and Eve.) In an additional (and nearly irrelevant) side note, drill sergeants must be familiar with Canto XX since I remember vociferous threats of similar anatomical “adjustments.”
All that said, man’s impertinent usurping of God’s prerogative (looking into the future) persists. I find it particularly ironic that Virgil’s Aeneid was the Ouija Board of its era (before that “automatic writing” board was patented in 1891). “Sortes vergilianae” (Virgilian lots) was a form of bibliomancy (use of books for divination) common in the Middle Ages in Europe. [🚧. Warning! — Do not try this at home! 🚧] The diviner opened the Aeneid at a random page, and placed their finger in a random place on that page. They then read the one or two sentences that they find themselves pointing to that were taken as prophecy. (Ask Charles I how Sortes vergilianae worked out for him…) Sortes Homericae used the Iliad and Odyssey; Sortes Sanctorum used the Bible, and in Islamic cultures the source was the Quran. (Perhaps there’s now an app for bibliomancy.)
Was Virgil entirely cleared of association with the dark arts? Not if sortes vergilianae is his burden to bear. Did our Pilgrim cleanse his guilt? Tuchman noted “Astronomy was the noblest science, and astrology, after God, the greatest determinant of affairs.” Did Dante retain these parallel universes and orders of experience (the physical, the spiritual, and the superstitious)?
In Paradiso, Beatrice will remind Dante: “Thou seest that reason has short wings.” Thus perhaps the need for a nuanced approach to the fusion of Christian theology and pagan ontology.
Despite the of chiding of his underworld guide Virgil, I continue to be moved by Dante's humanity and compassion in this hellish place. "... now think for yourself how I could ever keep my own face dry when I beheld our image so nearby and so awry that tears, down from the eyes, bathed buttocks, running down the cleft. Of course I wept, leaning against a rock along that rugged ridge" (Mandelbaum XX: 20-26). When the fate of his fellow human beings calls for empathy it's there, as is his sense of righteous justice towards the more serious sinners. The delicate balance between these two states has been captured so well in his words.
"I guess we have to do Boethius read-along in 2026!"
Yes!:)
I love the art, the Cavafy poem, the Carlo Rovelli reference,and the idea of the Boethius readalong! The intellectual and philosophical exercises here are outstanding. If only there were more uninterrupted hours in the day!
A most troubling canto that caused me much discomfort.
Today, humanism is perverted into transhumanism, and liberalism into neoliberalism. People turn from the hypocritical catholic church which increasingly stands with both. Franchised protestant churches endorse extreme zionism through twisted biblical interpretation. Pagan symbolism of an exceedingly satanic bent is blatantly featured in western entertainment and sporting mega events. The growth religions are increasingly techno scientism and debauched paganism.
Occult practices drove early enlightenment discoverys. The symbolism is prevalent in popular culture and has destructive satanic intent by its creators. The populace, mostly unknowingly to them, participates in these mass group practices. Amateur practitioners seek dangerous 'divine' guidance and insight into their choices and the future from subtle forces and beings, possessing neither the wisdom nor pureness of heart to avoid harmful results.
This canto was powerful. Disturbingly so.
Thank you. Den
Vashik, I am not sure if I have commented thusly but Inferno is the most frightening thing I have ever read - to the point I keep putting off the reading! It is only the idea that Paradiso must be so beautiful, as well as your guide and the beautiful art, that keeps me persisting with this.
Thank you to you, Lisa and Luana for guiding us.
Quite a controversial Canto. It seems…shrill and defensive. Dante and Virgil try hard to remove themselves and each other from complicity in these sinful practices. Dante’s embarrassed about flirting with astrology, as you note, and strives to confer legitimacy on Virgil so the Roman can remove the stain of divination from his poem and himself (hence his longest, most strident speech in the Divine Comedy. More about his poem’s continued divination misuse in a moment…)
I think man’s tendency to “hedge his bets” accounts for the persistent practices of the “fortune-teller, soothsayer, charmer, diviner, or caster of spells…consulter “of ghosts and spirits” or seeker of “oracles from the dead.” (That’s the “Thou shalt not” list in Deuteronomy 18:11–12). Since man, in the words of Barbara Tuchman, “lives close to the inexplicable” and his faith and reason do not address every mystery, man augments them with Deuteronomy’s “supplements.” The question “Who are you going to believe?” is not an either / or proposition for most of humanity; the two explanatory constructs (the sacrament and the supplements) share contested space in man’s reasoning, soul, and culture.
While Dante is unequivocally condemnatory, the Church’s approach to this conundrum is best described as…vacillating. The Church did its best to combat superstition, but, TBH, often absorbed, adapted or tolerated elements of pagan practices, festivals, and traditions to facilitate conversion. It made Christianity more relatable and acceptable to new converts, but meant some less desirable pre-Christian practices slipped in and persisted.
Man’s free will-based, complex relationship with God also includes the potential for impertinence (behavior that is rude and does not show respect, especially to someone older or in a higher position). The sinners in Canto XX were brazenly impertinent, and the Bible’s unequivocal about their fate: “A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.” (Leviticus 20:27) As a side note, Milton’s “Paradise Lost” is, to me, a lesson about the consequences of extreme impertinence (committed first by Satan and his fellow fallen angels, and then by Adam and Eve.) In an additional (and nearly irrelevant) side note, drill sergeants must be familiar with Canto XX since I remember vociferous threats of similar anatomical “adjustments.”
All that said, man’s impertinent usurping of God’s prerogative (looking into the future) persists. I find it particularly ironic that Virgil’s Aeneid was the Ouija Board of its era (before that “automatic writing” board was patented in 1891). “Sortes vergilianae” (Virgilian lots) was a form of bibliomancy (use of books for divination) common in the Middle Ages in Europe. [🚧. Warning! — Do not try this at home! 🚧] The diviner opened the Aeneid at a random page, and placed their finger in a random place on that page. They then read the one or two sentences that they find themselves pointing to that were taken as prophecy. (Ask Charles I how Sortes vergilianae worked out for him…) Sortes Homericae used the Iliad and Odyssey; Sortes Sanctorum used the Bible, and in Islamic cultures the source was the Quran. (Perhaps there’s now an app for bibliomancy.)
Was Virgil entirely cleared of association with the dark arts? Not if sortes vergilianae is his burden to bear. Did our Pilgrim cleanse his guilt? Tuchman noted “Astronomy was the noblest science, and astrology, after God, the greatest determinant of affairs.” Did Dante retain these parallel universes and orders of experience (the physical, the spiritual, and the superstitious)?
In Paradiso, Beatrice will remind Dante: “Thou seest that reason has short wings.” Thus perhaps the need for a nuanced approach to the fusion of Christian theology and pagan ontology.